Tuesday, 28 February 2012


by: Alessandro De Felice
Broadcast on January 17, 2005
Brother Francis, Franciscan Solitary in the Brahmanic Order
of Kristos-Lucifer-Wotan

Felice: The great writer in his Memoirs remembers his thoughts as he
begins to explain that he is going to write a commentary on his life says:
"The life of man is an intended recomposition. One can only consider it to
be a prodigious thing qualitatively. It is ephemeral, something so
insufficient it's a miracle that it can assist at something that can outlive it.
This has impressed me when directly merited and not to die a natural death
has appeared a miracle to me. "Life has appeared to me," says Jung, "like a
plant that lives through its rhizomes so that its own life is not perceptible,
hiding in the rhizome, something visible on earth for only a summer. Then
it goes away. It is an ephemeral thing. If one meditates on the infinite
becoming and appearing of life and cultures, one gets an impression of
absolute nothingness. But I have never lost the feeling of something that
lives and abides through the eternal change. What one sees is the flower that
perishes. The rhizome remains." And at the end he says: "At bottom the
only events in my life worth telling are those the immutable world has
rendered up through the mutable surfaces. Therefore he spoke mostly of
internal events, since my dreams and imagination remain there. Moreover
this constitutes the primary matter of my scientific work. Compared with
internal events the other recollections travel away with one's surroundings."
And in order to speak of these narrations of this immutable world and that
other mutable one, the interior and the external world, between myth and
reality, and to grapple with Professor Jung who wrote the prologue for this
book that was edited for the first time in Chile, before being printed
elsewhere, this book "The Visits of the Queen of Sheba," by Miguel Serrano,
I have him here in the studio for this conversation. Thank you, Don Miguel,
for being here with me.
Serrano: Thank you, Christian, for inviting me.

Felice: To begin, how did you come to hear about this thought of Jung on
life and the two lives.
Serrano: Very well, the special relationship that was established between us
is due precisely to "The Queen of Sheba." It was she who made it possible
to establish this and have such a special relationship. I esteem him warmly
and in my autobiography, with regards to Professor Jung we can see that he
was of great and heavy importance to me. But that is the truth. And it is
recalled that at the end of his life Jung received no one, not relatives nor
disciples, but he always received a young Chilean writer with whom he
discussed things and who was then known by no one. And this is something
that is in the Prologue by Professor Jung (translator - to Miguel Serrano's
book " The Visits of the Queen of Sheba") when he refers to the archetypes.
And, in the first place, he makes it known that the archetypes were not a
product of the unconscious, but rather of a super-consciousness, that is to
say, of the Gods of antiquity.
Felice: And the Queen of Sheba is this, perhaps what led to this interview,
Serrano: But first I must say, by the way, that it pleases me very much to be
here because this is evidence of something that existed in those days: one
studied then the Religion of Mystery, in my generation of '38, in the Thirties,
Forties and even through the Fifties. Then it did not matter what one might
think. The Mystery was the main thing. (translator--This was the
Kultmysterium of Dom Odo Casel, the Chosen Priest of Adolf Hitler, as
embodied unto PERFECTION in the Roman Breviary of 1960 and the
Roman Missal of 1962). And all this tradition has been lost in Chile and
what tied it all together was the Mystery. Very well, so to return to our
theme, the Queen of Sheba. What is the Queen of Sheba? What was the
Queen of Sheba? She is an archetype, of love, of the Eternal Feminine. The
Archetype abides and then sometimes incarnates. And, curiously, this
cannot happen until there is a Revelation, and this has occurred in Chile, and
perhaps in the world, only in our time. Where was the legend of the Queen
of Sheba born? Precisely in Arabia, in Mecca where the Ka'aba is located.
This is something most extraordinary, something that was never known
before. How is this? The legend says that Abraham, who came to pray with
his son Ishmael, in the exact region where Mecca is located, in order to
establish a special cult of worship to Him. And there they found in a cabin a
woman who was a widow, by the name of Shiva. And she said she would
admit him into this house on the condition that what he would build there
would be kept in the possession of her descendants. And the descendants
who lived there, because of the widow, called themselves the Sons of the
Widow. So they had a stone there, a very ancient stone that the Greeks
wrote about, called the Ka'aba, "cave," which in its root is the name of the
Great Mother. In my book the first name I give to the Queen is the Great
Mother, precisely.
Felice: Is this the same Great Mother as the one written about by Hermann
Hesse in his book "Damien"?
Serrano: It is the same Universal Mother, that is in this case present in order
to reach the Ka'aba, this cave that is the symbol of the Mother, the refuge to
be exact, of the Great Mother. And to enter this cave there was a door
named Shiva. All of this was in contact with legendary India and the God
Shiva. In English she would be the Queen of Shiva. This is all the same
story. The God Shiva is an androgynous God of Love. As is the Queen of
Sheba. To have something that can be touched I have here this…
Felice: A little Pagan object.
Serrano: A lingnan, this is a lingnan with a yoni, (translator - an object
made of black stone) the sexual symbols of male and female in one single
symbol of union. Which is exactly what the Queen of Sheba represents.
She is Kali as well.
Felice: I have a portrait of the Queen of Sheba here, but it is from Ur.
Serrano: This culture appeared in Ur.
Felice: Which means this is Sumerian, right? In the Islamic world.
Serrano: That would be Iraq.
Felice: Interesting how this all comes together. Who is the Queen of
Sheba? Because on reading the book there is a feeling of tremendous
nostalgia for the loss of the Queen of Sheba and on the other hand an
understanding that the Queen of Sheba must be lost together with this
encounter, loss, decline, remembered little by little as the story is told. What
kind of love story is this?
Serrano: It is the representation of the feminine, the Eternal Feminine, that
on coming into contact with this world incarnates herself. But it also
produces an era of catastrophe, the desire of fusion, of union, that incarnates
continually and that comes and goes to separate itself. But there is
something else. To touch on this more closely, there is something
interesting about Islam. Islam: Allah, "El-Ella," (translator -- He-She).
When Abraham went there (to Mecca) he found there this Ka'aba, this black
stone inscribed with many names, the names of Shiva, Kali and many Gods,
but among them the name Allah. And he manipulated that name. Why?
Because "El" and "Ella," "El-Ella," "Allah," "He-She." And the most
extraordinary is that all this is known, but known in a very secret and
esoteric Order that is the foundation of Islam. "Is-lam" is Isis and "lam," the
way of the Goddess Isis. This is also Egyptian.
Felice: This is a mystery cult. The cult of Isis.
Serrano: And the Sufis are part of this story. There exists an Order that is
not spoken of nor heard about: The Order of the Black Stone or the Black
Sun that is spoken about so much. And there existed back in the Thirties
and Forties a relationship between this Order and George Steiner, Stein,
Sonnen (Sun). At that time a secret contact was made with Islam.
Felice: Well, this story of the progress of the soul or anima has an exterior
story as well as an interior story that connects with the Sufis and also with
Saint John of the Cross and with his Dark Night of the Soul, isn't that so?
Serrano: Totally.
Felice: In what way is this story, a tale of the love of a woman, since one
can read this story in that way; in what way is it also a story of divine love?
Isn't this true?
Serrano: It is quite interesting that it's said this cult for a woman doesn't
repeat itself, but it has been repeated. For example, in India the Moguls were
able to build the Taj Majal for divine love, and at that same time the wife,
the beloved, was put into purdah enclosed in a castle or palace so that no one
could touch her. She was enclosed within walls where none saw her. And I
remember that one day, on the way to the Taj Majal, I met the Rani Terrigar
Ibal (tr. - spelling uncertain), a princess or queen who was a widow. In the
Kali Yuga they had introduced democracy into India, so therefore she was a
Member of Parliament. There was an election and that day she was on the
road to make propaganda for the election campaign then underway. We sat
together under a tree and she said: "I would so much rather pass my time
instead in purdah. I don't care for democracy or Parliament at all. I would
so much rather go to be with my husband to make poetry and discuss
philosophy and religion such as we could do."
Felice: This secret sacred love is connected in your book "El-Ella" ("He-
She") with the tradition of the Cathars, that esoteric tradition that was
persecuted. So how does this conception of love connect with the Cathars?
Where does this come from?
Serrano: This love comes from India at bottom. In essence it derives from
Tantrism, from Hindu Tantrism. It comes from the superb old Hindu
temples. It goes out from there.
Felice: What is the concept of Tantrism, Don Miguel, for those who do not
Serrano: Tantrism is power. It is to realise and use sex. To use the libido
which is at the base of the Kundalini. This serves a love that is not physical
only. I just saw a very curious film named "The Destroyer." It was set in
the future and the people there were put into boxes where they would look at
each other but without physical contact and that would be everything
because, they would say, physical contact would be gross. And I think this
is something that has a point because there doesn't exist any organ
specifically for sex. The body does not have an organ exclusively for love.
The sexual organs also exist for other things. Nature or Mount Meru goes
flying out overflowing with things for man, with a great fruitfulness by
which a grain throws out thousands of seeds, or in a lifetime millions of
sperm. Yet nevertheless no organ exists solely for love. They exist for
touch, the mouth for eating, the eyes exist to see. This is an idea that
Tantrism understood in this way from the start, that for Tantric Love it is not
necessary to be able to touch. Because this is truly a limitation that
techniques, which are repeated again and again in a variety of situations, can
overcome and thereby those techniques can replace what man had before.

Felice: That exterior technology can replace what is interior by using these
techniques over millennia.
Serrano: They can replace it with what the Hawaiians call "mana," the
mind. For that a man must love a woman with all his chakras, with all his
being. The Japanese have long done this by sitting next to each other. They
are seated, him here and her there, and they come to a situation that is like an
orgasm, as we say. Therefore the gypsies say that for love there are three
great pleasures in life: to eat well, to speak and to die.
Felice: Because the key actions are sexual actions.
Serrano: Yes, such is what they have (in Tantrism).
Felice: In this beautiful Cathar story, this beautiful story we have been
running through, in the part about India, in the end the Queen of Sheba is
lost, the protagonist is lost. The story appears in an autobiographical form.
In what sense is the story an autobiography?
Serrano: To begin with, to meet with the Queen of Sheba is very difficult, it
is a privilege. It was a great event in the drama of his life when Professor
Jung discovered (the Archetype of) the Queen of Sheba. In his biography
that Jung wrote with Toni Wolfe he was married to her and she went away.
That is because if one has the great privilege to meet the Queen of Sheba,
then it is not in order to have sexual relations with or marry her, because that
will end in destruction. If a man meets with the Queen of Sheba, then it is a
doorway to loyalty. He cannot buy her. That cannot be. The Queen of
Sheba is for A-Mor, not for marriage. What is A-Mor? It means Without
Felice: If we discuss real concrete life where we marry and we die, is it
possible to marry with A-Mor? Is this an impossible dream or must there be
a definitive separation between marriage and A-mor?
Serrano: One cannot approach things this way because one cannot find her
here. One must go to where she is, elsewhere, in a very precarious
condition. One may be able to be with her if one keeps remaining there.

Felice: In this idea we separate this world from the other. This makes it
very difficult. What is the practice in the real world? How to qualify this
Serrano: One can stimulate this with the love of the Cathars, the
Troubadours, and the love of the Troubadours is Platonic love, the idea.
And the ideas when they incarnate downwards are then lost in this world of
matter. Because this world is of matter and here we are making everything,
we do not have things. We are converting things, but with this matter as its
relationships go lower, then everything corrupts to some extent. Therefore it
is necessary to return. From the moment of the explosion, the Big Bang,
there is a war, and this is the evil. Implosion, inwards, permits us in some
way to return, to recover what was lost. The Queen of Sheba is found there
within implosion and recovery.
Felice: And what do the Cathars say? How do they resolve this?
Serrano: The Troubadours no, but the Cathars yes. There was an entire
technology, a technique. For the Troubadours she, perhaps the Queen of
Sheba, was always inaccessible. They saw her and they remained smitten
with their eyes, exactly during visits when they would go to the mountain or
the caves. They sang and they had a secret place to go, like their nests,
where they gazed at her and went to see her. So they would only look at her
in order to know her. They would go there at night to gaze at her and had a
vision of the ancient cosmic body of the woman. These things happened at
night. This Tantrism was also practiced in India at the same time. On one
side there would be the Kaula practitioner with her on the other side and a
wall separating them. This was the Asag, the Test of Asag. The Magi did
this then. When they told King Arthur his wife Gwinevere was in a cave
together with Lancelot he walked into there and his men were going to kill
them, but they were back to back, so King Arthur said no, they should not
touch them because that would be a bad reaction.
Felice: the flames already consumed them.
Serrano: The flames consumed them much better and much more. In India
there was the practice of Maithuna, magic coitus, which is coitus without the
sharpness. In the moment of coitus itself all of this fire would circulate
through the blood and develop the chakras in such a way they would develop
their vision (translator -- Serrano indicates the Third Eye). This could never
be developed without the woman, but only a woman Tantric initiatress. This
is Alchemy and Jung said there were never any alchemical books written by
women. This is because the role of women alchemists is so important that
writing books did not interest them. They had to pass the metals to the
initiate man so that the feminine energy could enter into them and he could
then drink them and thereby construct the Absolute Man, which is exactly
that, totality. This is Shiva Parvati, because he must resurrect his She. As
Jung said, the soul of men is feminine, the anima, and the masculine soul of
women is the animus. One must take possession of oneself with one's
appropriate counterpart, because there was a partition that separated in the
Big Bang and disintegrated the soul. To recover the man's soul wants to
have its face, to have the face of She, and the woman helps him to enable
this to happen so that two persons have one personality.
Felice: In the conversations you had with Jung, when he came to visit you
in Locarno, he recounts in a medical circular he left with you something
very interesting about separation. He says that in time the masculine and
feminine must separate and that is the first tragedy. The second tragedy
recounted by Professor Jung is the separation between the conscious and the
Serrano: Interesting.
Felice: What did Professor Jung tell you about this separation, this
separation that has been so incarnated in the Occident?
Serrano: He told me something very curious, very interesting about what
happened in the Occident. Our world, our development went forward quite
naturally through Paganism. It was interrupted by another civilization that
imposed itself on the Pagan Occident and cut off its advance. Namely, the
Roman Empire and Christianity with Charlemagne and all of that. This cut
away the possibility of developing the Pagan civilization. Wotan was put
away as something apart that could not be touched. This produced in the
blood of the unconscious of this Folk a break by which another was imposed
onto it and this dichotomy was an internal conflict. Catholicism produced
this with the concept of sin. This was terrible because it produced,
according to Professor Jung, a type of schizophrenia, which caused an
explosion of wartime and terrible wars.

Felice: All of this returned through the unconscious that had been
Serrano: …that had been suppressed. We discussed this for an entire day.
All this was suppressed because it was in opprobrium. But this allowed an
incredible advance that had never occurred before, perhaps in the universe,
the awareness of oneself, the consciousness of self, the Selbst.
Felice: Perhaps others did this. The Hindus, for example.
Serrano: No. The case of the Hindu Folk is curious. It is certain that for the
Hindus the world went forward from the beginning with a mythology, living
it. They do not have this problem, but they have had another. Individuality
did not exist in India. For example, an Italian tells me about adventures he
has in that country, a woman he meets in the town square with whom he had
an adventure in Rome. Something very Italian, but so it is.
Felice: (Laughs with amusement.)
Serrano: Jung noted the Hindus do not have ideas. Rather the ideas appear
to them.
Felice: So how do the Hindus think?
Serrano: They don't think. The ideas come to them, they just appear to
them. They develop and depend on a center that is again and again like an
open carriage in comparison with the Occidental mind. In India they do not
get bored but watch everything like a dog or cat that comes and goes
because they are immersed in the collective unconscious.
Felice: There seems to be a distinctive manner in all that.
Serrano: Yes, they think from different centers. In the Occident the
Westerner creates technology with that and they are more right there present
in particular things. This produced something most interesting in the Europe
between the Thirties and the Fifties. They relived the Pagan Cult, but
consciously, in a way never produced before in Roman history. That is to
say, Paganism in a conscious form. The Gods, man began to become like
Gods and to illuminate his own Creator, according to Jung. As Hölderlin
said, before the ancient Gods never thought or felt anything by themselves.
Someone else felt for them: the poets. In this case the Occident created a
self, an individuality. This is unique in the world because they could restore
all this and, therefore, when I had been in contact with Jung, I wrote to him
from India that the abandonment seemed to me to be like the Crucifixion of
the Self, but he said to me that, no, on the contrary, one must not crucify the
self, one must reinforce it. The Way of our Occident is to achieve the
Absolute Self, very interesting, as Hermann Hesse said to me. When
consciousness dies, when the conscious and the unconscious are on the point
(of dying), then there is the arrival of the Self or Selbst. This is the way of
the (tr. - Aryan) man and in essence of the Ka'aba (tr. - the Black Stone) and
the cave as well.
Felice: We have been saying through this program that there are these ways
of thinking. You have been applying them in many ways. For example, the
Greeks had a way of thinking, the Hindus have a manner of thought. How
do we think? Would we be thinking for ourselves or something else?
Serrano: There are many centers for this among us humans, but in the
Occident we have only used one, the chakra of the intellect, the forehead.
Among the Hindus there are centers in the knees, in the solar plexus, in the
heart. They have names for them all in Sanskrit and they have their mantras
to develop them. There is the serpent, kundalini, coiled up in the lingnan
and coiling through so many centers for the various types of Tantric love.
And these are centers of consciousness. They are not centers of energy, but
centers of consciousness and they are distinct. How do the Japanese think,
for example? With the Manipura chakra. They must want this because each
has their own usual kind of mind. So how do we think?
Felice: It is a broken work, no?
Serrano: We now think with the chakras of sex, the Muladhara, because we
are at present in a sexual world.
Felice: They have chakras to which they refer and to which geography
refers as well.
Serrano: Geography, and with this geomancy. It has to do with this: We
have not continued developing our chakras because we have been thinking
only with precisely those chakras that do not accord with the chakras of the
North or Europe, with their centers. And this is exactly what produces the
sexualism that takes root so much in our country.
Felice: The obsession for the sexual, for pretty young girls, for sensation,
for whatever.
Serrano: Because one does not develop all the chakras so that they recollect
and agree with each other.
Felice: What would be the way to use these in a particular way, in a
distinctly Chilean or South American way? In comparison with Greeks or
Hindus, what technique would our be our own way to think in a different
Serrano: There are Japanese or Italian ways to do this, to plant their garden
and built a hut, it is true. This is discussed by Carpentier, a man born to do
Felice: Alejo Carpentier. (tr. - a White Latin and the most famous writer of
the Cuban Revolution.)
Serrano: …Carpentier or (tr. -Augusto Roa) Bastos, who was also a friend.
In this moment a Japanese man has raised a most extraordinary question
about this, but it is too late. There is no time. This would be of the greatest
extraordinary interest to the young men, but they have lost all this. We are
too far into the Kali Yuga, which is Kali, the Queen of Sheba. Right now we
are on the edge of a catastrophe that is building up in order to make a new
beginning. There is already no more time, unfortunately.
Felice: So we have failed in our destiny?
Serrano: Collectively, but not individually. Individually one must stand his
ground, wherever it may be, to the end in order to achieve the Absolute Man
through the Secret Order of the Black Sun or the Black Stone. March
forward and this can happen.
Felice: In this book (tr. - El-Ella or He-She, a Book of Magic Love), which
consists of three parts, there is a very original connection made between
events, reincarnated or the same, that occur in Malaya, then in the world of
the Cathars, signs impressed among them, and then in the Andes, in Chile.
There is an obsession. What distinct points connect these three places in
Malaya… the Andes. What contour relates them?
Serrano: The Eternal Return. This book is based on the Eternal Return.
Felice: There is Nietzsche, then.
Serrano: They are identical events in distinct places in the world. This very
conversation we are having here we may have had elsewhere, perhaps in
Malaya, and in a hundred years in some other place we may have it again.
Felice: This idea has been poorly understood and applied, a secret, and you
revealed it in this book while writing about it in the same place where
Nietzsche first expressed it, in the Engadin (tr. - in the Swiss Alps).
Felice: …What happened to Nietzsche with the Revelation of the Eternal
Return, with his vision of it up in those mountains? What happened to
Nietzsche in relation to the Eternal Return?
Serrano: This Revelation of the Eternal Return was very curious because we
can say this origin was in Buddha. Nietzsche was very knowledgeable about
all of this, but there is also Parzifal, "Persian," Farsi. Zoroaster. His Maestro
is Zoroaster. This played a tremendous role in his psychology because the
Eternal Return is essential to that nightmare. A man who was much
interested in this was Peter Ouspensky who wrote a book named "The
Strange Life of Ivan Osokin" that deals with the Eternal Return. The Eternal
Return occurs there and he discusses it. Yet it is very curious that he
philosophized that…
Felice: Nietzsche encountered the mystical in that place.
Serrano: It was an experience among those rocks (tr. - a Divine Revelation
both for Nietzsche and for Serrano). He was so terrified that, when Lou
Salomé met him a short time afterwards, she recounted in her Memoirs that
he was trembling violently (tr. - literally, "trembling in terror"). And then he
said to her that one must rise to great altitudes (tr. - above sea level) to be
able to be seared by it, to have this Revelation impressed into one's flesh.
Whether this results in sons or not is only something poetic. Do not commit
this error. The fact is the Eternal Return does not require a soul to
reincarnate. It is not reincarnation.
Felice: It is distinct from reincarnation?
Serrano: Totally.
Felice: What is the fundamental impression that makes this so difficult to
Serrano: Well, Nietzsche said the following: Time is infinite but energy is
limited. Birth is limited. Creation is limited within the universe, so time
keeps cycling round until it arrives at the same point and everything repeats.
This is something phenomenally vast but it returns in the end.
Felice: Enormous!
Serrano: The thing is so enormous, but to take the philosophy into oneself is
more so. Buddha spoke of reincarnation but when asked about the soul he
fell silent and very possibly this referred to the Eternal Return. This idea
that Nietzsche had is something tremendous, but there is a possibility in the
universe that even the highest mountain climber has never been able to
touch, because it deals with a universe with other laws and No Law. To go
out from the Eternal Return. This is the treasure, perhaps what Buddha
called Nirvana. To go out from the Eternal Return. Something completely
foreign to everything in this universe and this is possible. But perhaps it
does not interest our contemporaries.
Felice: And with this I came across a photo taken at Montagnola with
Hermann Hesse. We will look at this photo from the book. In what year did
this meeting take place?
Serrano: In 1951.
Felice: And on entering the house of Hermann Hesse you wrote a famous
poem that says:
"When one has finished his life and finished his mission one has the right
perhaps to face the idea of death. One does not then need shadows because
one has known so many of them in this world. What one then needs is
You went to visit and see this man often and took part in everyday gettogethers.
But you crossed his threshold often not to take part in banalities
but to discuss magical and illuminating things. What do you remember of
the moment when you met Hermann Hesse?
Serrano: It was curious because Hermann Hesse was in a class not well
known in England, for example, but in Our America, yes, he was read in
Chile, in Argentina and Mexico. And, when I went to Europe invited to an
international conference of journalists in Evian as representative of the
newspaper Mercurio and the Zig-Zag publishing house, there was a Chilean
ambassador in France named Joachim Fernandez who invited me there to
France, but he said he did not know Hermann Hesse. I went to get to
understand Europe and therefore I asked them where the high representative
of Chile was in Switzerland, so I said to them that I wanted to go there
because Hermann Hesse was living in Switzerland.
Felice: What did you think of the book about Abraxas when you read it, a
book that influenced many people so much?
Serrano: Damien impressed me because the book is magical, filled with
keys, the sons of the widow, for example, the sons of She.
Felice: What is the message, the most important secret of Damien?
Serrano: The meeting with himself, because more profoundly Damien is the
internal part of himself, the being, because Sinclair, the principal hero of the
book, the protagonist, meets with Damien in college, a place where he
develops a great interest in Damien because at base Damien is himself.
Damien says to him he will return because there isn't the distance of a hair
separating them.
Felice: This is Abraxas, isn't it?
Serrano: The God Abraxas.
Felice: And why is this so important?
Serrano: Because he is a God that includes everything. He includes the
poles, what is called obscurity and light. Jung has taken up this theme too.
Jung is the one who discusses Abraxas.
Felice: Jung speaks about the shadow of the imaginary and how it is a
mistake not to incorporate the shadow, not to take it up into oneself.
Serrano: Certainly. This is what we have been talking about: incorporation.
I told Jung this causes the sense of being unique in the world because one
overcomes the rest (tr. - the obstacles). Awareness, developing consciously.
How to say this? The right side of the brain has atrophied because of
materialist uses of the mind. The atrophied side represents intuition,
mythology, tradition and all that remains on the other side represents the
rational. This intuition is something the Pakarati (a family of Easter
Islanders) have. And more, Felice, Ka'aba is cave, stone, an dark stone, a
funerary meteorite only the tribes could have seen. But what did the Hindus
say about them? They called them vimanas and said they were flying
vehicles made of stone. Therefore they were of an extra-terrestrial origin.
They exist! And that's why the Pakarati speak about them and, when asked
what moves them, they say they are moved by mana, by the mind. So they
have been said to be moved by wings since very ancient times.
Felice: Now speaking of the meeting with Hermann Hesse. How old were
you when you had that meeting?
Serrano: 1951… I need a calculator for that. (Felice laughs) Let's see… I
was born in 1917. How many years to 1951?
Felice: 34 years had passed.
Serrano: Nevertheless I had gone to Europe and gone then to Switzerland,
but no one in the embassy knew anything about Hermann Hesse or where he
was living. But then a woman knew. It is always the women who know
these things. She was a secretary in the embassy, Violetta, and she said he
was living in Castagnola. Ah, but where was "Castagnola"? It was
Montagnola. Then we took the last bus remaining that another woman had
left there on the side. We travelled and then I went into a cottage and asked
where Hermann Hesse lived. I said I was an employee and he was my
employer, apparently from Yugoslavia or somewhere, since they would
always have some special skills or other. Then I came to the house and there
was nothing left to do but throw up my hands because a sign there said, "Do
not enter" in German. "No visitors," it said. And I entered. Something
happened then that was absolutely incredible. She let me in! That left me
astounded. It was an incredible thing. I had come upon the Queen of
Sheba!! Jung had spoken and written to me over the years about this woman
that had cost him some considerable labours and then the years passed, I had
published my book "The Queen of Sheba" and I was living in Switzerland in
the old house of Hermann Hesse, the Casa Camuzzi, and a letter arrived
saying "I was reading your book translated into German and you write of a
person who I believe is the grandmother of my wife, Toni Wolff." And she
leaves behind a series of things, films, documentaries, what have you, that
allow people to tell me they're going to recount their histories with her that
were just like in those films and what they didn't see of her was to them still
just as they would have imagined. As if she were at that time sending me
the gift that her grandmother would be exactly as I had written the Queen of
Sheba would be.
Felice: It is the meeting with She.
Serrano: It is the life that lives in a form that does not die but is real. The
consequence is that in the end we have unknown friends who come to the
aid of those who are alchemists.
Felice: In this meeting with Hermann Hesse, in this conversation, then what
Serrano: Next I entered through the gate, to put this in sequence, and I was
not wearing a regular jacket but a blanket that hung over the shoulders
woven with a wool all in white, with elegant threads perhaps. And there was
a mist that was whirling around everywhere. He saw me and said in an
animated voice: "Parsifal!" in French, because there one spoke in French or
Italian, since that was in the Italian part of Switzerland, and he said, "Pardon
me, but with this overcast weather, I would have thought today we were in
the Engadin, or perhaps in Sils Maria," which was precisely where Nietzsche
had lived.
Felice: What is the most important thing you take away from this
Serrano: That for those who have not had such good fortune, my woman
was then a widow woman, so the time may come for you even if you haven't
reached it yet. Well, the most important thing, and I was such a young man
then, was Montagnola where the Voice of God could be heard. And the
most interesting thing was the mountain range, like a painting shining in the
light of the moon. That is the Remembrance of Montagnola that I have from
everything there.
Felice: Having met Hesse, as you also met Jung, what is the sketch, the
atmosphere you have of him?
Serrano: He realized himself to the depths, through that struggle as well.
He was often out in nature. One day I went there with an actress, Jennifer
Felice: Quite a beautiful woman. We have her photo here. She looks like
the Queen of Sheba, no?
Serrano: There is a close resemblance. I took her with me when I went to
meet with Jung.
Felice: Who was she?
Serrano: She was a fantastic actress in films such as Duel in the Sun, A
Farewell to Arms, Love is a Many-Splendored Thing, films that I love. She
was most extraordinary! She went to India and I was told to show her India,
so I took her around India along with Rossalini.
Felice: Well, which Rossalini? There are more than one…
Serrano: Roberto Rossalini, who I had already come to know in India. And
she wanted to experience Mount Kailas. I would say to her "to Kailas or not
to Kailas, that's India to you." That is how we put it. Then I went away with
her to see Hermann Hesse and we travelled there but he was time and again
out on a walk or away travelling or starting out again at the end. And I went
to see him one day after his wife had died, Ninon Auslander, also an
extraordinary woman. It grieved him much that she had died and the son
called me to the house. And Hermann and I always spoke a lot about death.
It is not a problem for me. And where is Hermann now? He is here,
everyplace, in the air, in letters and he comes to me. I have two small pages
of paper here and when I give one of them to you I have handed over a page
of Miguel Serrano to you. Hermann came one day to see me in the Chaco
outback. A most endearing man.
Felice: As for death, what is your vision of death? What is your perception
or understanding of death?
Serrano: Ahh, very well, one can resurrect. That is the principal matter,
truly. To resurrect so that one goes flying on one's own … He is Christ. He
revived and came up from the good earth. The Way is something like that.
Felice: But are those reasons and feelings to be taken in the Catholic
meaning of the flesh or another reason…?
Serrano: Meaning the flesh, but everything necessary is there. What is
called the physical body and going to the negative of the photo, to the astral
body in so far as that can be received. And when Christ went on the Road to
Emmaus, when the disciples had fled, immediately when someone spoke
they said "He speaks like the Maestro" but they did not recognize Him
because the resurrected look like the living but are not the same. Everything
has changed. To begin with, the equalized masses are not eternal. Therefore
they recognized him by the way he broke bread. He told them he is the
Maestro but not to touch Him, "no me tangere, don't touch me," because the
power of the risen chaste Aryan renders him terrible.
Serrano: The Chinese, the Daoists, they have taken the road there already.
The Daoist magicians are placed in the earth and do not die. They are buried
in the tomb and placed in a creche to be resurrected, I believe thereby
untouched by death. The majority simply disappears. Hence it is so
important to work to revive. So that in that manner those who are with the
body can come so that the relatives can view it for a specific time and grieve
for the dead one, for the death of this body. What does not die is the subtle
classroom of the propitious events of what has passed. And the curious
thing is that in the yoga of India everything is burned, everything is
cremated. To burn is an Aryan custom, good, but in the highest yoga one is
not burned, one is entombed. Why? Because it is possible that one is
Felice: It interests me that in your books there is a way of magic and a way
of mysticism. There is reference to your way of magic and a way of the
mystical. How do you distinguish between the ways of magic and the
Serrano: The mystical is like what is called the ancient philosophy of India,
which is to say to tend to merge with the Father, to tend to merge with the
Creator, for the self to disappear. He who numbs himself does not know
himself. To merge oneself, to make oneself disappear in the Great Self. As
is said in the following words of Jesus Christ: "The Father and I are the
same person (translator--from Latin: "persona" or "mask")." And Jung,
when he wrote thirteen years after the War, as he wrote in his Memoirs, as a
man sitting with crossed legs meditating over his own life, said that to
diffuse/disseminate is to appear, because who is the Father? He was He, and
therefore he was not I, to differentiate himself. Therefore resistance (against
oneness) is to stand back. And curiously Christ says "I died for myself and
for many." He died for a precise number of the dead, when all will have
already died. Well, when Christ, when Jesus Christ is crucified, because the
Crucifixion is mystic death, the death of the magician, which is to say they
leave in the astral body in order to live on another planet. So therefore while
he was still on the Cross he said to the Thief: "Tonight you will be with me
at the right hand of my Father." Already he does not say to be one with my
Father, but separated from my Father.
Felice: As an "I," we say.

Serrano: As an "I." And this self is able to give to the Father a personality
the Father did not have. Because it happens the Gods are unaware of
themselves. They are aware of what they are doing, what they are creating.
What they keep is not awareness of themselves but of what the Son is doing.
But the Son on making himself is going to be what Jung said in his
Testament letter, what was well-expressed in this letter, this letter that I had
when he died.
What do I take away today from all this treasure I have gained from the
experience of my life? To shatter it, until with it I am able to illuminate the
creativity of the Creator.

Felice: How beautiful this is. How beautiful. It says that you are singular…

Serrano: In my Memoirs there are He and I. He is this Being such as He is,
truly. And I, that which goes developing up to what I have reached.

Felice: This book is a thrust that looks for what is characterized as
organizing, living through books, a mythology achieved through this
thrusting. It is the ambiance, the generality of this literature, an ambiance of
its own. A question is: What is Chile, what archetype is Chile? In fact,
Chile is from the environment of the south as an Antarctic State.
Simplifying, it is from the whiteness in the sky of the magic selcnam, no
doubt. (Translator--"selcnam" is the unique selfness of the Native Chilean
Indians, the Araucanos, with their mysterious Indo-European origins similar
to the Ainu of Japan.) I ask myself what is this magic Chile you are always
touching that has ended, yet has flourished throughout your books, since you
have always travelled as a pilgrim.

Serrano: Chile is… This magic consists in the giants within the rocks.
There are the rocks, which are the giants that are within the mountains.

Felice: What is the white island within the sky?

Serrano: It was the island of Antarctica. This is what it has been. But all of
this has been corrupting, becoming mechanical. Chile was Nature. The
Chile I knew, that my generation used to know, that Chile, that extraordinary
Santiago of low houses, with two floors at most, of adobe, with a pure sky,
the mountains visible all day long. We lived then without knowing what we
had and would lose with the smoke and contamination. Because of that I say
a paradise existed before it was lost. Then it existed and those who lived in
that paradise did not know it before they lost it. And they cannot recover
that paradise nor will we ever recover the Chile of that time. Because of that
I say I do not believe in Chile, since together with this, or rather in the first
place, man has been corrupted. Because men who have been thrown aside
and lost destroy everything. I have lived this and today it is very difficult to
get back to the beginning of all this. They had loyalty, then everyone went
around denying what they had believed before.

Felice: And what made that Chile possible, that exterior Chile that one saw
and then was lost. What was the treasure that Chile carried in the interior
and that was the unique meaning of that country, as we would say?
Serrano: The magic sense of life and the possibility in each of the Total
Man, the Absolute Man. The possibility, so to speak, that the Araucano
Indians normally had and for which they built their distinctive huts so they
would not be a nothing, so they could build their spirits. And when the man
went off to war the woman remained behind. The Araucano, that's to say the
man, developed himself totally and put all his substances/agencies/bodies
("instancias") into his activities. That's the possibility there was in the
Chilean countryside. But, a magic vision of life. Life could become
magical. That was communication with the giants that are within the rocks.
That are in them that come out from them. They come out, but flying,
protecting, helping, because we are bombarded every day, every day, by
malignant projections, psycho-electronic, etcetera, that are managed from a
center in Chile. They come and go so that then we do not have the name of
their headquarter building when they are in this form. And now we reach
the most atrocious thing about these signs mean for us: They go away
elsewhere we know not where. These are all subliminal messages to stupefy
our people and disarm them with this idiocy.

Felice: Don Miguel, this is a long conversation that will not end or break off
even in a parallel world.

Serrano: Taj Majal, Taj Mahal (was such a conversation) previously. The
Taj Majal was made into a poem in marble, in precious stone, to Eternal
Love. Because Eternal Love, she exists.
[A brief discussion follows about the generation of '38, focusing on a very
wise woman with whom the translator is not familiar.]

Felice: And as for the straw: "There is a people," he says, "a people of
fleeting love built on something everlasting in man that becomes transparent
in this fountain of multiple portraits that is nevertheless completely single
and one. In this burning away of straw that removes the contingent
accidents from my being I contemplate the essential on the other side of the
obstacle that weighs on my brow. But, having become accustomed to my
bad habits, I do not bring out the fire of my being for lack of the strength to
leap through the waterfall that comes between man and God, the only access
to whom is through our nightly death (translator--meaning the little deaths of
sleep and the great death of the long sleep that awaits a possible

Felice: Many thanks to Don Miguel for this conversation and for having
taken the essential being of this continent from the other side to this side,
this Chile. Many thanks for this conversation.
Serrano: Thank you as well.


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